Discussion:
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New York
I have a small internet cafe where people come in and use the computers to browse. I charge a small fee- around 2.50 an hour.
A number of people have brought in DVD movies and watched them using the computer's DVD player. I have a number of movies on DVD (bought and paid for) which I would like to allow people to watch. The idea is to allow anyone to borrow a movie. The 2.50 an hour charge for the use of a computer is the same whether or not they view a movie or browse or do schoolwork.
Thanks in advance,
Joe
Answer:
Then you had better raise your price so you can still make a profit after paying the licensing fees to the copyright holder for commercial use.
Answer:
Actually, if you have DVD's that you have lawfully acquired, you can loan them out for others to use without paying any sort of license fee -- this is analagous to a library or a video rental place. You don't need a seperate license to lend out or rent DVD's that you have lawfully acquired.
Now, if you are putting the movies on, say, a central server that people can access, or are loaning out COPIES of DVD's for people to view, or or playing the DVD on a screen where more than a single computer user at a time can watch, THEN you'll need to do what BB suggests, and save up for a license.
Answer:
Actually, if you have DVD's that you have lawfully acquired, you can loan them out for others to use without paying any sort of license fee -- this is analagous to a library or a video rental place. You don't need a seperate license to lend out or rent DVD's that you have lawfully acquired.
Now, if you are putting the movies on, say, a central server that people can access, or are loaning out COPIES of DVD's for people to view, or or playing the DVD on a screen where more than a single computer user at a time can watch, THEN you'll need to do what BB suggests, and save up for a license. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Answer:
This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. BB, why do you say that? If this guy is essentially operating a movie rental system, there are no licensing problems whatsoever. Of course, if the OP is doing something that could be construed to be "public performance," like playing movies on a TV or computer screen in the cafe for everyone to watch, then I agree that a license is in order.
But no license is required simply to rent a movie to another.
Answer:
BB, why do you say that? If this guy is essentially operating a movie rental system, there are no licensing problems whatsoever. Of course, if the OP is doing something that could be construed to be "public performance," like playing movies on a TV or computer screen in the cafe for everyone to watch, then I agree that a license is in order.
But no license is required simply to rent a movie to another. Really? I was under the impression (apparently wrong according to this) that video rental stores have some type of special licensing. Was I mistaken?
What is the issue, the charging for use of a copyrighted DVD even to one person, allowing more than one person to view the DVD even as a loan or only by both allowing more than one to view it while charging them at the same time?
Answer:
Really? I was under the impression (apparently wrong according to this) that video rental stores have some type of special licensing. Was I mistaken? There is no special licensing. The owner of a DVD may sell, give away, loan, or rent that particular copy of the DVD as he or she wishes. If course, this does not give him or her the right to make copies and loan the copies out...
What is the issue, the charging for use of a copyrighted DVD even to one person, allowing more than one person to view the DVD even as a loan or only by both allowing more than one to view it while charging them at the same time? Reproduction rights are obvious -- you can't make copies of the DVD without infringing on the reproduction rights of the copyright holder. The more complicated issue is the copyright holder's right to control the public performance of his or her work. You can loan out DVD's to play ont he computers in your store, and as its one person, or maybe a friend or two, is all that can watch the DVD at one time, you are probably okay. However, if you put the DVD on some sort of server, where multiple people can view it at the same time (even if not exactly contemporaneously -- one guy could be wathcing the begining and the other the end), that's not allowed. Having the DVD run on a monitor where the entire cafe can view is probably also not legal.
If you are uncomfortable, you should spend an hour or so talking with your attorney to make yourself comfortable that what you are doing is okay. However, there are no licenses required to rent or loan out lawfully-acquired copies of movies, just like you don't need a license to loan out a copy of a book you purchased.
Answer:
Then how come all these media rental stores have to pay licensing fees to rent out copies of the DVD's?
This is different than a public library.
Perhaps you should go to one of the video rental centers in your area and ask about the applicible laws in your state relating to this issue, I'm sure they will be more than happy to give you that information for free, just as they will be seeking an injunction as soon as you begin offering your service that steals away their established customers while they comply with the law.
Answer:
Then how come all these media rental stores have to pay licensing fees to rent out copies of the DVD's? If you can show we where, in the law, that you need a license to rent a DVD that you own, I'll change my position. I used to assume that rental stores needed a license to rent, but I did some research, and it's just not the case.
"The first sale doctrine is codified at Section 109(a), which provides that, "[n]otwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord ... is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord." 17 U.S.C. § 109(a). The precise overlap between Section 106(3) and Section *1389 109(a) is important in defining the scope of Section 602(a)'s importation right. The distribution right under Section 106(3) includes the right to control not only the "sale or other transfer of ownership" of copies or phonorecords, but also their disposition "by rental, lease, or lending." The first sale doctrine under Section 109(a), however, is concerned only with those forms of disposition which involve sale or other transfer of ownership. See 17 U.S.C. § 109(c) [FN8] ; 2 Nimmer & Nimmer, supra, § 8.12[b], at 8-131. This is because, taken together, the distribution right and the first sale doctrine rest on the principle that the copyright owner is entitled to realize no more and no less than the full value of each copy or phonorecord upon its disposition. (emphasis mine) 1 Goldstein, supra, § 5.5, at 588-89, § 5.6.1, at 598; see Platt & Munk, 315 F.2d at 854. In fact, in determining what constitutes a "first sale" so as to trigger exemption from the distribution right, courts have applied a functional measure based on this principle and held that a first sale of copies or phonorecords has occurred if the disposition in question has enabled the copyright owner to realize their value. 1 Goldstein, supra, § 5.6.1, at 598 & n. 14; see Platt & Munk, 315 F.2d at 851 (" '[T]he author is just as much injured by being deprived of the price of a genuine copy as by having a piratical copy substituted for it.' ") (quoting Henry Bill Publishing Co. v. Smythe, 27 F. 914, 922 (C.C.S.D.Ohio 1886)); Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus, 210 U.S. 339, 343, 351, 28 S.Ct. 722, 723, 726, 52 L.Ed. 1086 (1908) ("The facts disclose a sale of a book at wholesale by the owners of the copyright, at a satisfactory price....")."
Parfums Givenchy v. C&C Beauty Sales, 832 F. Supp. 1378, 1388-89 (C.D. CA 1993). Basically, this says that if the copyright holder has received the "full value" of the sale, "first sale doctrine" kicks in and the copyright holder may no longer control the distribution of those particular copies of the DVD's.
"The plaintiffs' sales of video cassette copies of their copyrighted motion pictures to the defendants resulted only in a waiver of the exclusive distribution right held in those particular copies sold, 17 U.S.C. § 109(a) (1976), therefore, any other rights the plaintiffs held in the motion pictures remain with them in their capacity as copyright owners."
Columbia Pictures v. Redd Horne, 568 F. Supp. 494, 498 (W.D. Penn 1083).
Once someone sells a copy of a DVD, they lose the right to control distribution of that particular copy of the DVD.
However, that said, I would advise the OP to talk with an attorney before starting this project -- although I see no problems with the rental of the DVD's, the rental of the DVD's to place in computers you provide onsite may (and I stress the may, it's not clear) be consider a "public performance" and therefore not lawful without a license. So check with your lawyer. But just renting the movies, no problem there.
Back to rmet4nzkx:
If they are paying license fees -- I don't know if they are or not -- the only reason I could see that they would need to do so is if they obtained the DVD's for significantly below the wholesale cost, in which case the copyright owner has not received the "full value" of the sale of the DVD. But if you are buying the DVD at full wholesale (or especially retail), then first sale kicks in, and there is no need for a separate license.
Answer:
divgradcurl,
Thank you for your clear responses. This question when previously asked to different people got many different answers without any clarity.
Let me follow up with the following which would seem reasonable based on our discussion so far.
I know from my personal experience how easy it is for CDs and DVDs to get scratched and unusable. This usually happens when they are laid diwn directly on tables not in a CD/DVD case, which I fear would happen.
I would like to put a copy of the movies on a server with the originals locked in a cabinet for safekeeping. It should not be a problem to have the server limit the number of users for each movie to one. This would limit one bought DVD to one use at a time, whether lent or rented. At the same time it would ensure that they are not ruined by mishandling.
Does that sound right?
Answer:
If you can show we where, in the law, that you need a license to rent a DVD that you own, I'll change my position. You'll be a long time waiting on that proof from Rmet.
Rmet, Belize Breeze and IAAL are three people who browse this forum using posting what are usually uninformed and erroneous interpretations of the law. IAAL is by far the worst though BB is wrong quite often wrong. Rmet is by far the best of the three, but given the other two that's not a difficult accomplishment.
The important thing to remember is not one of them has a background in law. This is an entertainment forum which occasionally has accurate legal information.
Answer:
js3j,
you wrote:
I would like to put a copy of the movies on a server with the originals locked in a cabinet for safekeeping. It should not be a problem to have the server limit the number of users for each movie to one. This would limit one bought DVD to one use at a time, whether lent or rented. At the same time it would ensure that they are not ruined by mishandling. This would be copyright infringement, clear and simple. You cannot make a copy of a CD or DVD except as a personal archival copy, and if you ever transfer the CD or DVD in anyway, you either have to transfer the backup or destroy it.
Further, "time-shifting" or "space shifting" a DVD or CD is similarly legal ONLY for personal archival use or personal performance use. This is a bit tricky, so bear with me -- if you lend or rent the CD or DVD to another person, the person who now has the DVD or CD does NOT have the right to make or use an archival backup or space-shifted copy (copying the DVD to a hard drive on a server would be "space-shifting"), only the actual owner has the right to space-shift and to use the space-shift. Therefore, the person now viewing the "lent" space-shifted DVD is now infirnging the copyright owner's rights, and the owner -- you-- is vicariously and contributorily liable for infringement as well.
If you want to do what you are planning to do, you WILL need a separate license. Further, even renting out DVD's to view at YOUR cafe on YOUR computers may also be troublesome, under the Columbia Pictures case I mentioned above.
Spend a few bucks talking with a local attorney before you start spending money on this.
However, even if you do require a license, I don't think that the licenses for public performance are that expensive, so if you only had a few movies to choose from, it still might make economic sense. But start with talking to your lawyer, to make sure you are in the clear.
Answer:
You'll be a long time waiting on that proof from Rmet.
Rmet, Belize Breeze and IAAL are three people who browse this forum using posting what are usually uninformed and erroneous interpretations of the law. IAAL is by far the worst though BB is wrong quite often wrong. Rmet is by far the best of the three, but given the other two that's not a difficult accomplishment.
The important thing to remember is not one of them has a background in law. This is an entertainment forum which occasionally has accurate legal information. Excuse me, but once again, Rhubarb, you are wrong.
Both BB and IAAL are attorneys, I am not an attorney, my area is forensics a different area of the law, I deal with facts and evidence, I am an expert witness.
Your legal background is questionable at best, you claim to be a member of the bar, I have to ask which one, the kind where they serve alcohol, but it couldn't be one that allows you to represent clients. Today your displayed your ignornace after I appropriately refered a disabled person to ADA accommodations, you told her instead to get the subpoenea Quashed which was doubly wrong! You don't even know what you don't know.
Don't worry folks, there are laws that regulate the rental of DVD's, why even churches have to pay royalties when they print the words of songs or perform music that isn't public domain. Didn't we just go through a whole big thing with people sharing music on the web? They cracked down on all of this, so go ahead, taunt them and wait to pay the cost.
Answer:
Don't worry folks, there are laws that regulate the rental of DVD's And I posted the law above -- but if you have evidence to the contrary, please post it, because I am curious if you think there is something different out there.
why even churches have to pay royalties when they print the words of songs or perform music that isn't public domain. Which is true, but has nothing to do with DVD rentals.
Didn't we just go through a whole big thing with people sharing music on the web? They cracked down on all of this, so go ahead, taunt them and wait to pay the cost. And again, this has what to do with renting DVD's?
Both BB and IAAL are attorneys, As am I.
Answer:
OK I'm not sure I got it so let me phrase it in my own words and tell me if I got it.
If I make a "space-shifted" copy so that now I have the original and a copy
1. I can rent/lend the original and keep the copy for safekeeping but
2. I cannot rent/lend the copy and keep the original for safekeeping - this would apply to both a copy made onto a server and a copy onto a blank DVD-both being refered to as "space-shifted" copies.
Just for clarification: What is time-shifted as opposed to space-shifted. Also what do you mean by "and if you ever transfer the CD or DVD in anyway, you either have to transfer the backup or destroy it.?"